From mkanat at kerio.com  Mon Aug  2 07:09:52 2004
From: mkanat at kerio.com (Maxwell Kanat-Alexander)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:09:52 -0700
Subject: Changes in 2.19
In-Reply-To: <410B055A.8040208@peshkin.net>
References: <410B055A.8040208@peshkin.net>
Message-ID: <1091430592.3163.5.camel@max.localdomain>

>     Similarly, templates checking for login should use {% IF user.id %] 
> instead of [% IF user %]

	Isn't there a UserLoggedIn() function for this, so that we don't have
to know that? :-) Or, if there isn't, shouldn't there be...?

	-Max




From luis.villa at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 08:30:34 2004
From: luis.villa at gmail.com (Luis Villa)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 04:30:34 -0400
Subject: Google ads
In-Reply-To: <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <2cb10c440408020130ae5144b@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:16:03 -0700, Myk Melez <myk at mozilla.org> wrote:
> David Miller wrote:
> 
> > 1) Do we even want ads on bugzilla.org?
> 
> A pertinent question given that we're considering running ads is: do we
> need money, and what for?  If so, let's consider other ways to get it
> besides running ads on the site.  For example, we could put out a call
> for donations from Bugzilla installations and organizations who make
> money from Bugzilla and related products.

I have to second this question; I'm not opposed to google ads in
principle, but it seems like just making some income 'because we can'
doesn't make much sense. If there are long term and reasonably
repetitive needs someone foresees (hardware?) then ads probably make
sense, but if there are small, targeted, one-time costs, I'm sure some
of us who are heavy users might cough up a bit.

Luis


From chicks at chicks.net  Mon Aug  2 11:48:05 2004
From: chicks at chicks.net (Christopher Hicks)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 07:48:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Google ads
In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440408020130ae5144b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org>
 <2cb10c440408020130ae5144b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.60.0408020746110.21829@skippy.fini.net>

On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Luis Villa wrote:

> I have to second this question; I'm not opposed to google ads in 
> principle, but it seems like just making some income 'because we can' 
> doesn't make much sense. If there are long term and reasonably 
> repetitive needs someone foresees (hardware?) then ads probably make 
> sense, but if there are small, targeted, one-time costs, I'm sure some 
> of us who are heavy users might cough up a bit.

I think it would be good for the money to go to paying somebody to do the 
"ugly duckling" sorts of projects that nobody wants to get their hands 
dirty doing.

-- 
</chris>


From kiko at async.com.br  Mon Aug  2 13:54:31 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 10:54:31 -0300
Subject: Changes in 2.19
In-Reply-To: <410B073F.70605@bugzilla.org>
References: <410B055A.8040208@peshkin.net> <410B073F.70605@bugzilla.org>
Message-ID: <20040802135431.GG1018@async.com.br>

On Fri, Jul 30, 2004 at 10:43:11PM -0400, David Miller wrote:
> Joel Peshkin wrote:
> 
> >    When developing new code for the 2.19 branch, please be aware that 
> >Bugzilla->user will ALWAYS be defined even if no user is logged in.(bug 
> >253588)  Bugzilla->user->id will be non-zero only if a user is logged 
> >in.  Functions controlling user access permissions can now move from 
> >globals.pl to User.pm have one extremely fast implementation.
> >
> >   Similarly, templates checking for login should use {% IF user.id %] 
> >instead of [% IF user %]
> 
> The rest of this story is:  There is now an "anonymous" user, which has 
> no permissions and no login_name and a userid of 0, which is the default 
> User object that you get when you reference Bugzilla->user and the user 
> is not logged in.  

Some post-checkin issues that might be worth discussing:

    - Does it make sense to offer a logged_in method that returns zero
      or one based on the id being zero or not? The id==0 thing is an
      implementation detail that would really be better hidden and reads
      a lot worse.

    - Are there certain Bug attributes for which we want to raise an
      error if someone tries to get/change it on a logged out user? This
      might be a good way of catching possible illegal access to an
      attribute or two.

Joel, Erik, Dave?

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From justdave at bugzilla.org  Mon Aug  2 21:49:34 2004
From: justdave at bugzilla.org (David Miller)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:49:34 -0400
Subject: Changes in 2.19
In-Reply-To: <20040802135431.GG1018@async.com.br>
References: <410B055A.8040208@peshkin.net> <410B073F.70605@bugzilla.org> <20040802135431.GG1018@async.com.br>
Message-ID: <410EB6EE.4070605@bugzilla.org>

Christian Robottom Reis wrote:

> Some post-checkin issues that might be worth discussing:
> 
>     - Does it make sense to offer a logged_in method that returns zero
>       or one based on the id being zero or not? The id==0 thing is an
>       implementation detail that would really be better hidden and reads
>       a lot worse.
> 
>     - Are there certain Bug attributes for which we want to raise an
>       error if someone tries to get/change it on a logged out user? This
>       might be a good way of catching possible illegal access to an
>       attribute or two.

These both sound like good ideas to me.

-- 
Dave Miller      Project Leader, Bugzilla Bug Tracking System
http://www.justdave.net/             http://www.bugzilla.org/


From mkanat at kerio.com  Mon Aug  2 22:04:34 2004
From: mkanat at kerio.com (Maxwell Kanat-Alexander)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:04:34 -0700
Subject: Changes in 2.19
In-Reply-To: <410EB6EE.4070605@bugzilla.org>
References: <410B055A.8040208@peshkin.net> <410B073F.70605@bugzilla.org>
	 <20040802135431.GG1018@async.com.br>  <410EB6EE.4070605@bugzilla.org>
Message-ID: <1091484273.3197.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 14:49, David Miller wrote:
> These both sound like good ideas to me.

	Yeah. For reference, I've done a system like this before (with user
objects) and I ended up going with a subclass structure where there was
a certain *class* of user called a "NobodyUser" -- it makes things
pretty easy, since all you have to do for "Nobody" is instantiate the
NobodyUser (who is a singleton, so it doesn't take any resources or much
time to instantiate it).

	So, that's just a thought, for the future. :-)

	-Max




From justdave at bugzilla.org  Tue Aug  3 05:23:07 2004
From: justdave at bugzilla.org (David Miller)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 01:23:07 -0400
Subject: SCM Integration support in Bugzilla
In-Reply-To: <1091230755.2281.72.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>
References: <1091230755.2281.72.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>
Message-ID: <410F213B.5030709@bugzilla.org>

Kristis Makris wrote:

> Please comment on which of these functions could be accepted in some
> integration API. I'd like us all to define the minimum set of functions
> that are guaranteed to be available (or backported) in Bz 2.14.x, Bz
> 2.16.x, Bz 2.18.x and anything in the future. I'd like you to force me
> to use a single package (e.g. Integration.pm) that is guaranteed to
> never break the bugtracking-backend integration, and that we all upgrade
> accordingly when schema changes occur.

It ain't gonna happen.  The API that exists in 2.14/2.16 is rapidly 
going away.  We can probably agree on something for 2.20 and forward 
that will be persistent, but the stuff in the older versions (globals.pl 
and CGI.pl are glaring examples) are not mod_perl compatible and will be 
going away as soon as we can make them do so; so API compatibility 
between 2.20 and 2.16 is probably not a possibility.

-- 
Dave Miller      Project Leader, Bugzilla Bug Tracking System
http://www.justdave.net/             http://www.bugzilla.org/


From mkgnu at gmx.net  Wed Aug  4 19:24:06 2004
From: mkgnu at gmx.net (Kristis Makris)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 12:24:06 -0700
Subject: SCM Integration support in Bugzilla
In-Reply-To: <410F213B.5030709@bugzilla.org>
References: <1091230755.2281.72.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>
	 <410F213B.5030709@bugzilla.org>
Message-ID: <1091641825.4331.7.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>

> > 2.16.x, Bz 2.18.x and anything in the future. I'd like you to force me
> > to use a single package (e.g. Integration.pm) that is guaranteed to
> > never break the bugtracking-backend integration, and that we all upgrade
> > accordingly when schema changes occur.
>
> It ain't gonna happen.  The API that exists in 2.14/2.16 is rapidly 
> going away.  We can probably agree on something for 2.20 and forward 

This is a fair response. If you don't mind, I'd like to file a bug for
this. I'd like us to agree on something for 2.20 and forward that will
be persistent. Bugzilla just has to decide how it wants to be integrated
:) Dave Swegen had mentioned some thoughts for integration through the
web over a .cgi, using an admin account. He also had some ideas on
storing the SCM username within Bugzilla. Whatever you folks decide,
I'll go with. But please, lets address this.

> going away as soon as we can make them do so; so API compatibility 
> between 2.20 and 2.16 is probably not a possibility.

Fair enough. Since I know what changed in 2.18 and have a fix for that,
I can support that within Scmbug for now.



From kiko at async.com.br  Wed Aug  4 19:39:42 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:39:42 -0300
Subject: SCM Integration support in Bugzilla
In-Reply-To: <1091641825.4331.7.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>
References: <1091230755.2281.72.camel@syd.mkgnu.net> <410F213B.5030709@bugzilla.org> <1091641825.4331.7.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>
Message-ID: <20040804193942.GF2778@async.com.br>

On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 12:24:06PM -0700, Kristis Makris wrote:
> > > 2.16.x, Bz 2.18.x and anything in the future. I'd like you to force me
> > > to use a single package (e.g. Integration.pm) that is guaranteed to
> > > never break the bugtracking-backend integration, and that we all upgrade
> > > accordingly when schema changes occur.
> >
> > It ain't gonna happen.  The API that exists in 2.14/2.16 is rapidly 
> > going away.  We can probably agree on something for 2.20 and forward 
> 
> This is a fair response. If you don't mind, I'd like to file a bug for
> this. I'd like us to agree on something for 2.20 and forward that will
> be persistent. Bugzilla just has to decide how it wants to be integrated
> :) Dave Swegen had mentioned some thoughts for integration through the
> web over a .cgi, using an admin account. He also had some ideas on
> storing the SCM username within Bugzilla. Whatever you folks decide,
> I'll go with. But please, lets address this.

I'm sure we all agree we need this -- the time is right to write up a
proposal and start filings and fixing bugs to work towards this goal.

There are a few different options for integration here; the nicest one
by far is probably XML-RPC, and IIRC Redhat has some working code that
could be broken apart for bit-by-bit integration. Any takers?

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From asmodai at wxs.nl  Wed Aug  4 21:15:35 2004
From: asmodai at wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 23:15:35 +0200
Subject: SCM Integration support in Bugzilla
In-Reply-To: <20040804193942.GF2778@async.com.br>
References: <1091230755.2281.72.camel@syd.mkgnu.net> <410F213B.5030709@bugzilla.org> <1091641825.4331.7.camel@syd.mkgnu.net> <20040804193942.GF2778@async.com.br>
Message-ID: <20040804211535.GH23179@nexus.ninth-circle.org>

-On [20040804 21:42], Christian Robottom Reis (kiko at async.com.br) wrote:
>There are a few different options for integration here; the nicest one
>by far is probably XML-RPC, and IIRC Redhat has some working code that
>could be broken apart for bit-by-bit integration. Any takers?

Seconded.

Work will actually sponsor time for me to work on Bugzilla, so I will be
messing with the codebase more again.  And this is one of the areas I
definately need to mess with.

-- 
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(at)wxs.nl> / asmodai / kita no mono
Free Tibet! http://www.savetibet.org/ | http://www.tibet.nu/
http://www.tendra.org/   | http://www.in-nomine.org/
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful
servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has
forgotten the gift...


From Galewsky at evokesoft.com  Wed Aug  4 22:09:05 2004
From: Galewsky at evokesoft.com (Andrew Galewsky)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:09:05 -0500
Subject: Lost Mojo...
Message-ID: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com>

I could have sworn that there was a document that describe how to create
url's for embedding in other web sites with results from bugzilla - I
can't remember how I did it and have been searching all around.  I know
that I could just embed the results from a particular page - but then
there is all the search boxes, etc. that get in the way.

 

Have I been dreaming and that is what I did?

 

Thanks in Advance

 

Andy

 

 

_____________________________________ 



 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bugzilla.org/pipermail/developers/attachments/20040804/bb0db105/attachment.html>

From justdave at bugzilla.org  Wed Aug  4 22:27:31 2004
From: justdave at bugzilla.org (David Miller)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 18:27:31 -0400
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com>
Message-ID: <411162D3.1000706@bugzilla.org>

Andrew Galewsky wrote:

> I could have sworn that there was a document that describe how to create 
> url's for embedding in other web sites with results from bugzilla - I 
> can't remember how I did it and have been searching all around.  I know 
> that I could just embed the results from a particular page - but then 
> there is all the search boxes, etc. that get in the way.

http:// yourbugzilla /page.cgi?id=linkify.html  ?

-- 
Dave Miller      Project Leader, Bugzilla Bug Tracking System
http://www.justdave.net/             http://www.bugzilla.org/


From kiko at async.com.br  Wed Aug  4 22:29:14 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:29:14 -0300
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com>
Message-ID: <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br>

On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 05:09:05PM -0500, Andrew Galewsky wrote:
>    I could have sworn that there was a document that describe how to create
>    url's for embedding in other web sites with results from bugzilla - I
>    can't remember how I did it and have been searching all around.  I know
>    that I could just embed the results from a particular page - but then
>    there is all the search boxes, etc. that get in the way.

You want page.cgi?id=linkify. It's funny that pages.cgi is ninja-magic
right now. The navigation redesign I started with Tiago this week should
include a way to access these!

Here's my test site:

    http://www.async.com.br/~kiko/mybugzilla/page.cgi?id=linkify.html

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From AGalewsky at evokesoft.com  Thu Aug  5 13:18:01 2004
From: AGalewsky at evokesoft.com (Andrew Galewsky)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:18:01 -0500
Subject: Lost Mojo...
Message-ID: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016333@hercules.evokesoft.com>

I don't remember using that methodology, it looks intriguing - but I am
too obtuse to figure out how it works...

-----Original Message-----
From: developers-owner at bugzilla.org
[mailto:developers-owner at bugzilla.org] On Behalf Of Christian Robottom
Reis
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 5:29 PM
To: developers at bugzilla.org
Cc: Tiago R. Mello
Subject: Re: Lost Mojo...

On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 05:09:05PM -0500, Andrew Galewsky wrote:
>    I could have sworn that there was a document that describe how to
create
>    url's for embedding in other web sites with results from bugzilla -
I
>    can't remember how I did it and have been searching all around.  I
know
>    that I could just embed the results from a particular page - but
then
>    there is all the search boxes, etc. that get in the way.

You want page.cgi?id=linkify. It's funny that pages.cgi is ninja-magic
right now. The navigation redesign I started with Tiago this week should
include a way to access these!

Here's my test site:

    http://www.async.com.br/~kiko/mybugzilla/page.cgi?id=linkify.html

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361
2331
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=agalewsky at evokesoft.com>



From kiko at async.com.br  Thu Aug  5 14:57:39 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:57:39 -0300
Subject: Bugzilla::*.pm and Bugzilla.pm
Message-ID: <20040805145739.GA1712@async.com.br>


Interesting question:
    
    Should Bugzilla::Bug.pm be allowed to depend on Bugzilla.pm?

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From Kamal.Ahmed at esecurity.net  Fri Aug  6 21:23:10 2004
From: Kamal.Ahmed at esecurity.net (Kamal Ahmed)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:23:10 -0400
Subject: Urgent Help needed
Message-ID: <5513C07DE400274F9D90FF87B861873F35159F@va-ex01>

Hi,

I know this might not be the correct forum to post this, but I need
urgent help.

Here is what happened:

../query.cgi script was run at the bash prompt.

#./query.cgi 6010

6010 is a valid bug number, as a result of this I am getting error
message:

Server error!

    The server encountered an internal error and was unable to complete
your request. 

    Error message:
    Premature end of script headers: enter_bug.cgi 

And cannot get most of the cgi scripts to run.


I would really appreciate any help to fix this


Thanks,

-Kamal.



From Kamal.Ahmed at esecurity.net  Fri Aug  6 21:44:54 2004
From: Kamal.Ahmed at esecurity.net (Kamal Ahmed)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:44:54 -0400
Subject: Urgent Help needed
Message-ID: <5513C07DE400274F9D90FF87B861873F3515A0@va-ex01>

Ok, I found the fix:

First the bug number was invalid, and secondly as a result of the
../data/versioncache ownership was changed to root.
I chown it back to apache:nobody and the problem was rectified.

Thanks,

-Kamal.

-----Original Message-----
From: developers-owner at bugzilla.org
[mailto:developers-owner at bugzilla.org] On Behalf Of Kamal Ahmed
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 5:23 PM
To: developers at bugzilla.org
Subject: Urgent Help needed


Hi,

I know this might not be the correct forum to post this, but I need
urgent help.

Here is what happened:

../query.cgi script was run at the bash prompt.

#./query.cgi 6010

6010 is a valid bug number, as a result of this I am getting error
message:

Server error!

    The server encountered an internal error and was unable to complete
your request. 

    Error message:
    Premature end of script headers: enter_bug.cgi 

And cannot get most of the cgi scripts to run.


I would really appreciate any help to fix this


Thanks,

-Kamal.

-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=Kamal.Ahmed at esecurity.net>



From jpyeron at pdinc.us  Fri Aug  6 21:59:25 2004
From: jpyeron at pdinc.us (Jason Pyeron)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:59:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Better advertising for user list ... was Re: Urgent Help needed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061748190.10497-100000@ns.pyerotechnics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061754490.10497-100000@ns.pyerotechnics.com>



Good job on the new http://bugzilla.org/support/ page

Next, i think if BZ is not going to get its own user list, then at least 
there should be a forward of sorts for 

 users at bugzilla.org -> mozilla-webtools at mozilla.org

I thing too many people are unsure of the applicability of the 
@mozilla.org address.


-jp


-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-                                                               -
- Jason Pyeron                   http://www.pyerotechnics.com   -
- Partner & Sr. Manager         Pyerotechnics Development, Inc. -
- +1 (443) 451-2697             500 West University Parkway #1S -
- +1 (410) 808-6646 (c)         Baltimore, Maryland  21210-3253 -
-                                                               -
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain 
privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you 
have received it in error, purge the message from your system and 
notify the sender immediately.  Any other use of the email by you 
is prohibited.





From jpyeron at pdinc.us  Fri Aug  6 21:53:45 2004
From: jpyeron at pdinc.us (Jason Pyeron)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:53:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Urgent Help needed
In-Reply-To: <5513C07DE400274F9D90FF87B861873F35159F@va-ex01>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061748190.10497-100000@ns.pyerotechnics.com>

Kamal,

It sounds like you need help installing and configuring BZ, the best place 
is on the

 mozilla-webtools-request at mozilla.org?subject=subscribe 

mailing list. You can also search the archives at 

 http://groups.google.com/groups?q=netscape.public.mozilla.webtools

If you need help with source modifications, then please be more specific, 
what version, and a diff for you mods.

Sincerely,

Jason Pyeron

P.S.

If you are in a real pickle I am sure there are many developers/users who 
can offer fee based ASAP fixes for your issues. Just let them know. 

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Kamal Ahmed wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I know this might not be the correct forum to post this, but I need
> urgent help.
> 
> Here is what happened:
> 
> ../query.cgi script was run at the bash prompt.
> 
> #./query.cgi 6010
> 
> 6010 is a valid bug number, as a result of this I am getting error
> message:
> 
> Server error!
> 
>     The server encountered an internal error and was unable to complete
> your request. 
> 
>     Error message:
>     Premature end of script headers: enter_bug.cgi 
> 
> And cannot get most of the cgi scripts to run.
> 
> 
> I would really appreciate any help to fix this
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Kamal.
> 
> -
> To view or change your list settings, click here:
> <http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=jpyeron at pyerotechnics.com>
> 

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-                                                               -
- Jason Pyeron                   http://www.pyerotechnics.com   -
- Partner & Sr. Manager         Pyerotechnics Development, Inc. -
- +1 (443) 451-2697             500 West University Parkway #1S -
- +1 (410) 808-6646 (c)         Baltimore, Maryland  21210-3253 -
-                                                               -
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain 
privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you 
have received it in error, purge the message from your system and 
notify the sender immediately.  Any other use of the email by you 
is prohibited.





From gerv at mozilla.org  Sat Aug  7 18:31:47 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:31:47 +0100
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com> <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br>
Message-ID: <41152013.2090307@mozilla.org>

Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> You want page.cgi?id=linkify. It's funny that pages.cgi is ninja-magic
> right now. The navigation redesign I started with Tiago this week should
> include a way to access these!

The rationale behind this is that people can just drop pages into the 
relevant subdirectory in template/<lang>/ and go. The pages 
automatically get the Bugzilla header and footer, and there's access to 
the Bugzilla TT variables that everyone gets.

Basically, it's a simple extension system - with linkify being one 
example. We want people to be able to drop in and go; please don't break 
that when changing the navigation.

<does double take>

Navigation redesign? Is there a bug? And are you going to break old links?

Gerv


From gerv at mozilla.org  Sat Aug  7 18:36:34 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:36:34 +0100
Subject: Bugzilla::*.pm and Bugzilla.pm
In-Reply-To: <20040805145739.GA1712@async.com.br>
References: <20040805145739.GA1712@async.com.br>
Message-ID: <41152132.3060501@mozilla.org>

Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> Interesting question:
>     
>     Should Bugzilla::Bug.pm be allowed to depend on Bugzilla.pm?

Why shouldn't it be?

Gerv


From kiko at async.com.br  Sat Aug  7 18:41:13 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:41:13 -0300
Subject: Bugzilla::*.pm and Bugzilla.pm
In-Reply-To: <41152132.3060501@mozilla.org>
References: <20040805145739.GA1712@async.com.br> <41152132.3060501@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <20040807184113.GA1924@async.com.br>

On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 07:36:34PM +0100, Gervase Markham wrote:
> Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> >Interesting question:
> >    
> >    Should Bugzilla::Bug.pm be allowed to depend on Bugzilla.pm?
> 
> Why shouldn't it be?

Because Bugzilla.pm is (AFAIK) a support module for CGI files, and if we
want Bugzilla::* to be reusable for other situations apart from CGI
files, depending on Bugzilla.pm would be "bad".

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From kiko at async.com.br  Sat Aug  7 18:43:05 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:43:05 -0300
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <41152013.2090307@mozilla.org>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com> <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br> <41152013.2090307@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <20040807184305.GB1924@async.com.br>

On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 07:31:47PM +0100, Gervase Markham wrote:
> Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> >You want page.cgi?id=linkify. It's funny that pages.cgi is ninja-magic
> >right now. The navigation redesign I started with Tiago this week should
> >include a way to access these!
> 
> Navigation redesign? Is there a bug? And are you going to break old links?

No bug yet, but there will be. And no, we won't break old links -- the
pages URIs stay the same, the only thing we're working on is a
navigational structure -- menu and sub-menu -- IOW, a way to get rid of
our wonderful page footer. 

And don't write me back saying you think the page footer is a good thing
<wink>.

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From gerv at mozilla.org  Sat Aug  7 18:46:16 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:46:16 +0100
Subject: Google ads
In-Reply-To: <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <41152378.60309@mozilla.org>

Myk Melez wrote:
> A pertinent question given that we're considering running ads is: do we 
> need money, and what for?  If so, let's consider other ways to get it 
> besides running ads on the site.  For example, we could put out a call 
> for donations from Bugzilla installations and organizations who make 
> money from Bugzilla and related products.

Indeed. I've had about six emails just this week from private companies 
using Bugzilla, wanting to be on the installation list. They normally 
have a word of praise or two to go along with it.

If we need cash for something, let's have a PayPal (or similar) account, 
plug it on the website, and also start responding to those requests with 
a polite pointer at the URL.

But, as Myk says, what do we need cash for? Are we trying to do a Perl 
and hire a developer?

Gerv


From gerv at mozilla.org  Sat Aug  7 18:47:51 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:47:51 +0100
Subject: Google ads
In-Reply-To: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org>
Message-ID: <411523D7.7040107@mozilla.org>

David Miller wrote:
> Bart Decrem (the marketing guy at the Mozilla Foundation, for those that 
> don't know him) had suggested that we might put Google ads on the 
> bugzilla.org site in order to try to get some funding for 
> Bugzilla-related activities.  What we'd actually use the money for 
> probably depends on how much money it actually makes.  

You do realise Google pay per click, not per view? So you made money 
because your IRC buddies were clicking through.

Every click through to the competition is a potential lost user of 
Bugzilla. We'd need a very good use case for the money, and to have 
demonstrated that other fundraising mechanisms don't work, before we do 
this IMO.

Gerv


From kiko at async.com.br  Sat Aug  7 18:51:12 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:51:12 -0300
Subject: Google ads
In-Reply-To: <41152378.60309@mozilla.org>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org> <41152378.60309@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <20040807185112.GB2033@async.com.br>

On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 07:46:16PM +0100, Gervase Markham wrote:
> But, as Myk says, what do we need cash for? Are we trying to do a Perl 
> and hire a developer?

It would be great to have someone committed to work [put up] with us and
get some wanted but unsexy features actually patched and fixed.
Saturday-afternoon-hurry-mode memory picks would be the text-wrapping
bug, custom fields, FORM cleanup, ...

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From gerv at mozilla.org  Sat Aug  7 18:56:51 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:56:51 +0100
Subject: Bugzilla CSS plan
In-Reply-To: <410962A0.4010208@mozilla.org>
References: <410962A0.4010208@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <411525F3.8000800@mozilla.org>

Myk Melez wrote:
>   Here's the revised Bugzilla CSS plan.  

Generally looks good. A few comments:

> We move the Bugzilla stylesheets, which currently live in css/, to 
> skins/standard/, and we call them the standard skin.

Why not skins/default/ ? Then skins/default/ and skins/custom/ match 
template/<lang>/default/ and template/<lang>/custom/ . No need to 
re-invent terminology, surely?

> Installation admins can install third-party skins by adding them to the 
> skins/ directory and then adding their name to the "skins" parameter.

Just like languages. Cool.

> Skins can be either single CSS files (skins/<name>.css) or directories 
> of files (skins/<name>/) with the same directory/file structure as the 
> default skin.

Why have the additional complexity of the skins/<name>.css option, when 
it's exactly equivalent to skins/<name>/global.css?

> Bugzilla uses the standard skin by default.  Admins can make Bugzilla 
> use a third-party skin by default via the "default_skin" parameter.  

"defaultskin" to match "defaultlanguage"?

Gerv


From gerv at mozilla.org  Sat Aug  7 19:02:42 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 20:02:42 +0100
Subject: history of Bugzilla?
In-Reply-To: <20040730220138.GB1068@Matthew-Barnsons-Computer.local>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0407292350110.18109-100000@ns.pyerotechnics.com> <4109D097.8070608@bugzilla.org> <20040730220138.GB1068@Matthew-Barnsons-Computer.local>
Message-ID: <41152752.2010701@mozilla.org>

Matthew P. Barnson wrote:
> Terry Weissman initially released Bugzilla in late 1998.

Early 1998, actually. The Mozilla source code was released in March '98, 
and I'm pretty sure Bugzilla was around the same time. ant.jpg is dated 
Aug 1998.

> "Bugzilla 1" was his initial effort in TCL.  People liked it so much
> immediately that they began working with it.  Many of those original
> bugs were numbers 1-50 -- which is why bugzilla.mozilla.org does not
> have bug numbers below fifty.  Terry allocated that space to the old TCL
> bug system.

Actually, the first bug in b.m.o. is 35.

> Bugzilla 2 was the original Perl effort.  If you look at early Bugzilla
> bugs, you'll find a lot of feature requests for ways to do things --
> like editing the comments after they have been entered.  That's a
> feature that has never been implemented, despite sitting in the buglist
> for years, because people, apparently, LIKE the fact you can't go back
> and edit your previous comment.

Indeed. Don't mess with history. Also, see what a UI mess bulletin 
boards which allow this get into when they try and indicate to people 
that history has been changed, and how.

Gerv


From bugreport at peshkin.net  Sat Aug  7 21:35:19 2004
From: bugreport at peshkin.net (Joel Peshkin)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 14:35:19 -0700
Subject: Google ads
In-Reply-To: <41152378.60309@mozilla.org>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org> <41152378.60309@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <41154B17.2050307@peshkin.net>

Gervase Markham wrote:

>
> If we need cash for something, let's have a PayPal (or similar) 
> account, plug it on the website, and also start responding to those 
> requests with a polite pointer at the URL.
>
That works well for some potential donors.  For others, using 
cafepress.com to sell items like a Bugzilla CD for $50 would be a good 
way. Many corporations make it extremely complicated (read not worth it) 
to get a donation made, but will let a department order a $50 CD (as a 
thinly masked donation) just like any other petty item.  I had a devil 
of a time getting my company to figure out the mechanics of how to pay 
to register  CoolEdit back in the days when Syntrillium was harder to 
give money to.  When we started making heavy use of VNC, I just had my 
secretary order a few copies on CD. Our purchasing department never even 
knew they were doing something other than buying software.

> But, as Myk says, what do we need cash for? Are we trying to do a Perl 
> and hire a developer?
>
Ideally, yes.  More likely, it would let us contract one for a few 
months at a pop.  There is a lot of work that needs to be done for the 
common good (like customfields, a complete email rewrite, etc...) that 
nobody wants to volunteer to do.  What triggeed the current discussion 
was the inability to even get 2.18 release blockers reviewed.

The other related discussion point, while we are at it, is encouraging 
new contributors to take on tasks that need doing and/or encouraging 
commercial users to actually sponsor the work they want to see done.   
We probably should add a page on Bugzilla.org that suggests projects 
that a new contributor could actually attempt and have a prayer of 
landing and in which the team has sufficient interest that we would be 
willing to mentor somone.   In a related fashion, there are features 
that people want and nobody wants to write.  We could have an actual 
mechanism to encourage them to fund the development of their own pet 
features rather than whining in the bugs about how nobody has chosen to 
do it for them.

When I need a feature, I write it or have a contractor working for me 
write it.  Not everyone is going to do this.  Some companies would be 
willing to write a check to have someone else (like some of the team 
members who also consult) write it.  We should be encouraging this and 
helping them find QUALIFIED people to work with them. (That's a mixed 
bag on the current list)

-Joel



From gerv at mozilla.org  Sat Aug  7 21:53:23 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:53:23 +0100
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <20040807184305.GB1924@async.com.br>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com> <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br> <41152013.2090307@mozilla.org> <20040807184305.GB1924@async.com.br>
Message-ID: <41154F53.6030005@mozilla.org>

Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> No bug yet, but there will be. And no, we won't break old links -- the
> pages URIs stay the same, the only thing we're working on is a
> navigational structure -- menu and sub-menu -- IOW, a way to get rid of
> our wonderful page footer. 
> 
> And don't write me back saying you think the page footer is a good thing

Well, I can think of UIs which are a lot worse. Being able to see all 
your saved searches at once, and having one-click access to all of them, 
is definitely good. Myk killed my idea of a dropdown list for saved 
searches because it meant that you had to use extra clicks to run them.

Gerv


From bugreport at peshkin.net  Sat Aug  7 23:12:11 2004
From: bugreport at peshkin.net (Joel Peshkin)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:12:11 -0700
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <41154F53.6030005@mozilla.org>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com> <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br> <41152013.2090307@mozilla.org> <20040807184305.GB1924@async.com.br> <41154F53.6030005@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <411561CB.60307@peshkin.net>

Gervase Markham wrote:

>
> Well, I can think of UIs which are a lot worse. Being able to see all 
> your saved searches at once, and having one-click access to all of 
> them, is definitely good. Myk killed my idea of a dropdown list for 
> saved searches because it meant that you had to use extra clicks to 
> run them.
>
> Gerv
> - 


Actually, I had similar feedback except I think It would be better still 
to be able to assign a query to a link in footer ot the dropdown list in 
footer.  Sort of the same rationale as managing bookmarks.  Sometimes 
you want things right there and other times you want them organized away.






From justdave at bugzilla.org  Sat Aug  7 23:48:26 2004
From: justdave at bugzilla.org (David Miller)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:48:26 -0400
Subject: Bugzilla::*.pm and Bugzilla.pm
In-Reply-To: <20040807184113.GA1924@async.com.br>
References: <20040805145739.GA1712@async.com.br> <41152132.3060501@mozilla.org> <20040807184113.GA1924@async.com.br>
Message-ID: <41156A4A.6030907@bugzilla.org>

Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 07:36:34PM +0100, Gervase Markham wrote:
> 
>>Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
>>
>>>Interesting question:
>>>   
>>>   Should Bugzilla::Bug.pm be allowed to depend on Bugzilla.pm?
>>
>>Why shouldn't it be?
> 
> Because Bugzilla.pm is (AFAIK) a support module for CGI files, and if we
> want Bugzilla::* to be reusable for other situations apart from CGI
> files, depending on Bugzilla.pm would be "bad".

Might be better to ensure that Bugzilla.pm doesn't pull in any of the 
CGI-specific stuff unless it's specifically asked to.

-- 
Dave Miller      Project Leader, Bugzilla Bug Tracking System
http://www.justdave.net/             http://www.bugzilla.org/


From bbaetz at acm.org  Sun Aug  8 02:22:12 2004
From: bbaetz at acm.org (Bradley Baetz)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 12:22:12 +1000
Subject: Bugzilla::*.pm and Bugzilla.pm
In-Reply-To: <20040807184113.GA1924@async.com.br>
References: <20040805145739.GA1712@async.com.br> <41152132.3060501@mozilla.org> <20040807184113.GA1924@async.com.br>
Message-ID: <20040808022212.GA2501@mango.home>

On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 03:41:13PM -0300, Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> > >    Should Bugzilla::Bug.pm be allowed to depend on Bugzilla.pm?
> > 
> > Why shouldn't it be?
> 
> Because Bugzilla.pm is (AFAIK) a support module for CGI files, and if we
> want Bugzilla::* to be reusable for other situations apart from CGI
> files, depending on Bugzilla.pm would be "bad".

Not really. Its all heavily CGI-based at the moment because thats all we 
have available.

The only thing to remeber si that circular dependancies will cause 
problems. My local (untouched for 6 months) version of Bug.pm did have 
that dependancy.

Bradley


From gerv at mozilla.org  Sun Aug  8 14:57:42 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:57:42 +0100
Subject: Google ads
In-Reply-To: <41154B17.2050307@peshkin.net>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org> <41152378.60309@mozilla.org> <41154B17.2050307@peshkin.net>
Message-ID: <41163F66.6080408@mozilla.org>

Joel Peshkin wrote:
> Gervase Markham wrote:
> That works well for some potential donors.  For others, using 
> cafepress.com to sell items like a Bugzilla CD for $50 would be a good 
> way. 

We should be able to do that through the Mozilla Store. Currently, 
Bugzilla appears on the Mozilla CD but we could make it a separate sale, 
with profits ringfenced for Bugzilla activity.

>> But, as Myk says, what do we need cash for? Are we trying to do a Perl 
>> and hire a developer?
>>
> Ideally, yes.  More likely, it would let us contract one for a few 
> months at a pop.  

If it's short-term, I think it would be unwise to contract anyone who 
isn't already a developer.

If we are going to do this, doing it through the Foundation would 
probably be a good idea. That's what it's there for :-)

Gerv


From justdave at bugzilla.org  Sun Aug  8 16:08:25 2004
From: justdave at bugzilla.org (David Miller)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:08:25 -0400
Subject: Google ads
In-Reply-To: <41152378.60309@mozilla.org>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org> <41152378.60309@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <41164FF9.6060302@bugzilla.org>

Gervase Markham wrote:

> If we need cash for something, let's have a PayPal (or similar) account, 
> plug it on the website, and also start responding to those requests with 
> a polite pointer at the URL.

We are plugging a PayPal account from our website.  It belongs to the 
Mozilla Foundation, and it's their generic donate link.  I've been 
trying (unsuccessfully so far) to get something set up where they can 
track how many of those donations are because of Bugzilla.  If we do our 
own PayPal setup without going through the Foundation, we lose the 
tax-exemptness of the donations.

> But, as Myk says, what do we need cash for? Are we trying to do a Perl 
> and hire a developer?

I think the Bugzilla project could use a full-time administrator 
(whether that winds up being me or not).  I've had a hell of a time 
trying to keep up with everything, and I've barely been touching any 
code at all outside of things specifically requested by employers.  Just 
ask folks how impossible it is to get approvals on patches these days. 
I don't even read most of my bugmail anymore unless someone mentions my 
name in the comment (I have a filter in Thunderbird which labels the 
messages when it sees that), and that's really making me feel out of 
touch with the project.

Barring enough money to do that, others have suggested that we offer 
bounties on the features that we all agree we want, but nobody wants to 
work on.

-- 
Dave Miller      Project Leader, Bugzilla Bug Tracking System
http://www.justdave.net/             http://www.bugzilla.org/


From luis.villa at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 16:44:12 2004
From: luis.villa at gmail.com (Luis Villa)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 12:44:12 -0400
Subject: liveCD [was Re: Google ads]
In-Reply-To: <41163F66.6080408@mozilla.org>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org> <41152378.60309@mozilla.org> <41154B17.2050307@peshkin.net> <41163F66.6080408@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <2cb10c44040808094421f03e43@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:57:42 +0100, Gervase Markham <gerv at mozilla.org> wrote:
> Joel Peshkin wrote:
> > Gervase Markham wrote:
> > That works well for some potential donors.  For others, using
> > cafepress.com to sell items like a Bugzilla CD for $50 would be a good
> > way.
> 
> We should be able to do that through the Mozilla Store. Currently,
> Bugzilla appears on the Mozilla CD but we could make it a separate sale,
> with profits ringfenced for Bugzilla activity.

Just out of curiousity, has anyone put a live apache/bugzilla setup on
a livecd for demo purposes?

Luis


From justdave at bugzilla.org  Sun Aug  8 16:50:44 2004
From: justdave at bugzilla.org (David Miller)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:50:44 -0400
Subject: liveCD [was Re: Google ads]
In-Reply-To: <2cb10c44040808094421f03e43@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org> <41152378.60309@mozilla.org> <41154B17.2050307@peshkin.net> <41163F66.6080408@mozilla.org> <2cb10c44040808094421f03e43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <411659E4.6010207@bugzilla.org>

Luis Villa wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:57:42 +0100, Gervase Markham <gerv at mozilla.org> wrote:
> 
>>We should be able to do that through the Mozilla Store. Currently,
>>Bugzilla appears on the Mozilla CD but we could make it a separate sale,
>>with profits ringfenced for Bugzilla activity.
> 
> Just out of curiousity, has anyone put a live apache/bugzilla setup on
> a livecd for demo purposes?

Jim Walters (Bugopolis) has, but not exactly for demo purposes... 
that's what BugzillaNow is.  He sells it for $99 to burn it yourself and 
$119 to mail you a CD.  It also has some other stuff besides the core 
Bugzilla on it (Backup software, some extra reporting stuff, etc).

-- 
Dave Miller      Project Leader, Bugzilla Bug Tracking System
http://www.justdave.net/             http://www.bugzilla.org/


From jpyeron at pdinc.us  Sun Aug  8 16:54:37 2004
From: jpyeron at pdinc.us (Jason Pyeron)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 12:54:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: liveCD [was Re: Google ads]
In-Reply-To: <2cb10c44040808094421f03e43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408081252210.5230-100000@ns.pyerotechnics.com>

thats a great idea.

I am demoing a bz branch of ours soon, I guess I could make a live cd for 
it.

Anyone have quick pointers on this.

Will try to deliver within the week.

-jason

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Luis Villa wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:57:42 +0100, Gervase Markham <gerv at mozilla.org> wrote:
> > Joel Peshkin wrote:
> > > Gervase Markham wrote:
> > > That works well for some potential donors.  For others, using
> > > cafepress.com to sell items like a Bugzilla CD for $50 would be a good
> > > way.
> > 
> > We should be able to do that through the Mozilla Store. Currently,
> > Bugzilla appears on the Mozilla CD but we could make it a separate sale,
> > with profits ringfenced for Bugzilla activity.
> 
> Just out of curiousity, has anyone put a live apache/bugzilla setup on
> a livecd for demo purposes?
> 
> Luis
> -
> To view or change your list settings, click here:
> <http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=jpyeron at pyerotechnics.com>
> 

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-                                                               -
- Jason Pyeron                   http://www.pyerotechnics.com   -
- Partner & Sr. Manager         Pyerotechnics Development, Inc. -
- +1 (443) 451-2697             500 West University Parkway #1S -
- +1 (410) 808-6646 (c)         Baltimore, Maryland  21210-3253 -
-                                                               -
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain 
privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you 
have received it in error, purge the message from your system and 
notify the sender immediately.  Any other use of the email by you 
is prohibited.





From luis.villa at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 19:41:20 2004
From: luis.villa at gmail.com (Luis Villa)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:41:20 -0400
Subject: liveCD [was Re: Google ads]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408081252210.5230-100000@ns.pyerotechnics.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408081252210.5230-100000@ns.pyerotechnics.com>
Message-ID: <2cb10c440408081241305e4617@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 12:54:37 -0400 (EDT), Jason Pyeron <jpyeron at pdinc.us> wrote:
> thats a great idea.
> 
> I am demoing a bz branch of ours soon, I guess I could make a live cd for
> it.
> 
> Anyone have quick pointers on this.
> 
> Will try to deliver within the week.

After googling, I found http://knopzilla.sunsite.dk/ which purports to
do something similar, but I haven't had much chance to seriously look
at it. Might take a look at that, Jason.

Didn't know bugopolis was livecd based; I'd hate to cut into Jim's
revenue stream there but it would be nice for demos (as jason points
out.)

Luis


From preed at sigkill.com  Sun Aug  8 22:54:28 2004
From: preed at sigkill.com (J. Paul Reed)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:54:28 -0700
Subject: Google ads
In-Reply-To: <411523D7.7040107@mozilla.org>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <411523D7.7040107@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <20040808225428.GA15731@sigkill.com>

On 07 Aug 2004 at 19:47:51, Gervase Markham arranged the bits on my disk to say:

> Every click through to the competition is a potential lost user of
> Bugzilla. We'd need a very good use case for the money, and to have
> demonstrated that other fundraising mechanisms don't work, before we do
> this IMO.

Chiming in on this again, post-some discussion, I agree that I'd rather see
us selling Bugzilla release CDs, published BZ documentation for each
release, and maybe a BZ t-shirt or two (assuming we can come up with some
funny designs/slogans) as opposed to Google ads. 

Later,
Paul
------------------------------------------------------------------------
J. Paul Reed -- 0xDF8708F8 || preed at sigkill.com || web.sigkill.com/preed
Math, my dear boy, is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.
                                            -- Peter Griffin, Family Guy

I use PGP; you should use PGP too... if only to piss off John Ashcroft


From gerv at mozilla.org  Mon Aug  9 22:31:05 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 23:31:05 +0100
Subject: Google ads
In-Reply-To: <41164FF9.6060302@bugzilla.org>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org> <41152378.60309@mozilla.org> <41164FF9.6060302@bugzilla.org>
Message-ID: <4117FB29.2020708@mozilla.org>

David Miller wrote:
> We are plugging a PayPal account from our website.  It belongs to the 
> Mozilla Foundation, and it's their generic donate link.  I've been 
> trying (unsuccessfully so far) to get something set up where they can 
> track how many of those donations are because of Bugzilla.  If we do our 
> own PayPal setup without going through the Foundation, we lose the 
> tax-exemptness of the donations.

Indeed - the ring-fencing is the way to go. Where are you getting stuck?

> I think the Bugzilla project could use a full-time administrator 
> (whether that winds up being me or not).  

How much would we need to pay such an individual?

Would part-time do to start with? You can do a lot in 20 dedicated hours 
a week...

Gerv


From mkanat at kerio.com  Tue Aug 10 00:22:15 2004
From: mkanat at kerio.com (Maxwell Kanat-Alexander)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:22:15 -0700
Subject: Google ads
In-Reply-To: <41164FF9.6060302@bugzilla.org>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org>
	 <41152378.60309@mozilla.org>  <41164FF9.6060302@bugzilla.org>
Message-ID: <1092097335.32605.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2004-08-08 at 09:08, David Miller wrote:
> I think the Bugzilla project could use a full-time administrator 
> (whether that winds up being me or not).

	I agree, I think it *should* be you, and I think that we could do more
than one thing to raise that money.

	-Max





From myk at mozilla.org  Tue Aug 10 04:19:32 2004
From: myk at mozilla.org (Myk Melez)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 21:19:32 -0700
Subject: Bugzilla CSS plan
In-Reply-To: <411525F3.8000800@mozilla.org>
References: <410962A0.4010208@mozilla.org> <411525F3.8000800@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <41184CD4.8050707@mozilla.org>

Gervase Markham wrote:

> Why not skins/default/ ? Then skins/default/ and skins/custom/ match 
> template/<lang>/default/ and template/<lang>/custom/ . No need to 
> re-invent terminology, surely?

It's not reinvention but rather correct application.  Between "the skin 
shipped with Bugzilla" and "the skin this installation uses," the latter 
is most accurately signified by the term "default," hence the 
"default_skin" parameter (and, for that matter, the "defaultlanguage" 
parameter, whose initial value is "en," not "default").  We could call 
the former anything; "standard" captures its relationship to Bugzilla well.

>> Skins can be either single CSS files (skins/<name>.css) or 
>> directories of files (skins/<name>/) with the same directory/file 
>> structure as the default skin.
>
>
> Why have the additional complexity of the skins/<name>.css option, 
> when it's exactly equivalent to skins/<name>/global.css?

Because it enables skins to be distributed as individual CSS files, 
which according to Vitaly is a common and popular way of distributing them.

>> Bugzilla uses the standard skin by default.  Admins can make Bugzilla 
>> use a third-party skin by default via the "default_skin" parameter.  
>
>
> "defaultskin" to match "defaultlanguage"?

In the past we've used underscores, dashes and nothing to separate words 
in parameter names.  Of these three options, underscores and dashes are 
the standards in the computing world for signifiers.  Among other 
things, they let us prettify the names when used as labels.  We should 
use one of those two.

-myk



From mkgnu at gmx.net  Tue Aug 10 08:09:26 2004
From: mkgnu at gmx.net (Kristis Makris)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:09:26 -0700
Subject: data/versioncache and Scmbug
In-Reply-To: <20040727212409.GH2663@async.com.br>
References: <1090797326.4530.7.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>
	 <20040727212409.GH2663@async.com.br>
Message-ID: <1092125296.24044.4.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>

Well, there's a perfectly logical explanation for everything.

On Tue, 2004-07-27 at 14:24, Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> I'm finding it hard to understand why your versioncache would not be
> generated upon running a CGI, but you might be able to identify this
> quicker than me given it's actually missing from your disk <wink>.

It turns out that if one calls GenerateVersionTable() as the root user
(e.g. when running the Scmbug daemon), the permissions on
data/versioncache are:


# ls -lrtah data/versioncache 
-rw-rw----    1 apache   apache        16K Aug 10 01:05
data/versioncache

Which forbid the root user to delete the versioncache file.

suddenly unlink("data/versioncache") sounds a lot more attractive than
calling GenerateVersionTable(). Hmm...



From mkgnu at gmx.net  Tue Aug 10 08:45:15 2004
From: mkgnu at gmx.net (Kristis Makris)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:45:15 -0700
Subject: data/versioncache and Scmbug
In-Reply-To: <1092125296.24044.4.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>
References: <1090797326.4530.7.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>
	 <20040727212409.GH2663@async.com.br>
	 <1092125296.24044.4.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>
Message-ID: <1092127514.24044.7.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>

> Which forbid the root user to delete the versioncache file.
> 

Or... I had chdir'd to the wrong path. Aaah.. I wish there was a
remotely accessible interface by now ;)



From justdave at bugzilla.org  Wed Aug 11 04:25:10 2004
From: justdave at bugzilla.org (David Miller)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:25:10 -0400
Subject: data/versioncache and Scmbug
In-Reply-To: <1092125296.24044.4.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>
References: <1090797326.4530.7.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>	 <20040727212409.GH2663@async.com.br> <1092125296.24044.4.camel@syd.mkgnu.net>
Message-ID: <41199FA6.60404@bugzilla.org>

Kristis Makris wrote:

> Well, there's a perfectly logical explanation for everything.
> 
> On Tue, 2004-07-27 at 14:24, Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> 
>>I'm finding it hard to understand why your versioncache would not be
>>generated upon running a CGI, but you might be able to identify this
>>quicker than me given it's actually missing from your disk <wink>.
> 
> It turns out that if one calls GenerateVersionTable() as the root user
> (e.g. when running the Scmbug daemon), the permissions on
> data/versioncache are:
> 
> # ls -lrtah data/versioncache 
> -rw-rw----    1 apache   apache        16K Aug 10 01:05
> data/versioncache
> 
> Which forbid the root user to delete the versioncache file.
> 
> suddenly unlink("data/versioncache") sounds a lot more attractive than
> calling GenerateVersionTable(). Hmm...

Actually, that should be the other way around.  When you run it as root, 
it changes the permissions to be root, and then the apache user can no 
longer rename over top of it the next time it needs to be rebuilt, which 
causes Bugzilla to die.  I could swear we fixed that at some point 
though, so that if it can't write to the file, it assumes it's not there 
and deletes and rebuilds it (which it can do because of the directory 
permissions, since apache has write access to the directory).

-- 
Dave Miller      Project Leader, Bugzilla Bug Tracking System
http://www.justdave.net/             http://www.bugzilla.org/


From justdave at bugzilla.org  Wed Aug 11 04:29:07 2004
From: justdave at bugzilla.org (David Miller)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:29:07 -0400
Subject: Google ads
In-Reply-To: <4117FB29.2020708@mozilla.org>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org> <41152378.60309@mozilla.org> <41164FF9.6060302@bugzilla.org> <4117FB29.2020708@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <4119A093.1070409@bugzilla.org>

Gervase Markham wrote:

> David Miller wrote:
> 
>> We are plugging a PayPal account from our website.  It belongs to the 
>> Mozilla Foundation, and it's their generic donate link.  I've been 
>> trying (unsuccessfully so far) to get something set up where they can 
>> track how many of those donations are because of Bugzilla.  If we do 
>> our own PayPal setup without going through the Foundation, we lose the 
>> tax-exemptness of the donations.
> 
> Indeed - the ring-fencing is the way to go. Where are you getting stuck?

I'll reply to you off-list on this.

>> I think the Bugzilla project could use a full-time administrator 
>> (whether that winds up being me or not).  
> 
> How much would we need to pay such an individual?

dunno.  Enough for them to live on? Which of course varies widely by 
where they live, too.  (and with the help of another part-time job to 
cover the other half of their week, if they do it part-time)

> Would part-time do to start with? You can do a lot in 20 dedicated hours 
> a week...

That would probably be significantly better than what we have now. :)

-- 
Dave Miller      Project Leader, Bugzilla Bug Tracking System
http://www.justdave.net/             http://www.bugzilla.org/


From justdave at bugzilla.org  Thu Aug 12 00:30:50 2004
From: justdave at bugzilla.org (David Miller)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:30:50 -0400
Subject: pserver disabled for cvs write access
Message-ID: <411ABA3A.9050409@bugzilla.org>

Those of you with CVS write access may or may not have noticed that 
pserver is no longer available as a connection method.

We are now required to use SSH to connect to CVS for writing.  (pserver 
remains available for anonymous connections)

If you're on a unixy type box, the following script should fix your 
CVSROOT in your existing working directories:

find . -path \*CVS/Root -exec perl -pi -e 's/:pserver://' {} \;

You'll then need to set the CVS_RSH environment variable to "ssh" (this 
might be a good idea to put in your login script for your shell).

This also depends on you having sent in your DSA public key for ssh when 
Leaf mailed everyone asking you to a month or two ago.  If you haven't 
done that part, send an email to cvs-admin at mozilla.org asking for 
instructions.

If you don't already have CVS write access, this note does NOT apply to you.

-- 
Dave Miller      Project Leader, Bugzilla Bug Tracking System
http://www.justdave.net/             http://www.bugzilla.org/



From kiko at async.com.br  Mon Aug 16 19:49:47 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:49:47 -0300
Subject: Google ads
In-Reply-To: <41154B17.2050307@peshkin.net>
References: <41092628.1080002@bugzilla.org> <41098533.7010401@mozilla.org> <41152378.60309@mozilla.org> <41154B17.2050307@peshkin.net>
Message-ID: <20040816194947.GK1125@async.com.br>

On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 02:35:19PM -0700, Joel Peshkin wrote:
> >But, as Myk says, what do we need cash for? Are we trying to do a Perl 
> >and hire a developer?
> >
> Ideally, yes.  More likely, it would let us contract one for a few 
> months at a pop.  There is a lot of work that needs to be done for the 
> common good (like customfields, a complete email rewrite, etc...) that 
> nobody wants to volunteer to do.  What triggeed the current discussion 
> was the inability to even get 2.18 release blockers reviewed.

It would also be nice to have a travel fund so we could meet up in
person every year or so and do some intensive work on Bugzilla. Lots of
other projects manage this, and I don't see why we couldn't.

If we don't know what to do with the revenue, we're not being creative
enough -- I can sit for 15 minutes and find hundreds of ways to spend it.

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From kiko at async.com.br  Mon Aug 16 20:28:12 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:28:12 -0300
Subject: Bugzilla::*.pm and Bugzilla.pm
In-Reply-To: <20040808022212.GA2501@mango.home>
References: <20040805145739.GA1712@async.com.br> <41152132.3060501@mozilla.org> <20040807184113.GA1924@async.com.br> <20040808022212.GA2501@mango.home>
Message-ID: <20040816202812.GP1125@async.com.br>

On Sun, Aug 08, 2004 at 12:22:12PM +1000, Bradley Baetz wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 03:41:13PM -0300, Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> > > >    Should Bugzilla::Bug.pm be allowed to depend on Bugzilla.pm?
> > > 
> > > Why shouldn't it be?
> > 
> > Because Bugzilla.pm is (AFAIK) a support module for CGI files, and if we
> > want Bugzilla::* to be reusable for other situations apart from CGI
> > files, depending on Bugzilla.pm would be "bad".
> 
> Not really. Its all heavily CGI-based at the moment because thats all we 
> have available.

Have you had a look at what Bugzilla.pm does currently? It basically
offers a convenient set of wrapper functions around Template, CGI and
Login functionality -- which is all very CGI-specific (even in a
mod_perl context). If we remove that from Bugzilla.pm, well, not much
would be left.

Maybe Bugzilla->user should just forward its request to Bugzilla::Auth,
which would store the currently active User object. That way
Bugzilla::Bug could just grab that from Bugzilla::Auth without having to
worry about circular dependencies.

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From kiko at async.com.br  Mon Aug 16 23:07:01 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:07:01 -0300
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <41154F53.6030005@mozilla.org>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com> <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br> <41152013.2090307@mozilla.org> <20040807184305.GB1924@async.com.br> <41154F53.6030005@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <20040816230701.GV1125@async.com.br>

On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:53:23PM +0100, Gervase Markham wrote:
> Well, I can think of UIs which are a lot worse. Being able to see all 
> your saved searches at once, and having one-click access to all of them, 
> is definitely good. Myk killed my idea of a dropdown list for saved 
> searches because it meant that you had to use extra clicks to run them.

If you have them fire onChange, then you don't need to use extra clicks
to run them. And note that the dropdown list scales better (in general)
than horizontally displaying them anyway.

This is somewhere where I think it doesn't make sense to be too picky
up-front -- if the overall change is good enough to start with, we can
fine-tune based on feedback over a period.

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From gerv at mozilla.org  Tue Aug 17 08:46:16 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:46:16 +0100
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <20040816230701.GV1125@async.com.br>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com> <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br> <41152013.2090307@mozilla.org> <20040807184305.GB1924@async.com.br> <41154F53.6030005@mozilla.org> <20040816230701.GV1125@async.com.br>
Message-ID: <4121C5D8.5000709@mozilla.org>

Christian Robottom Reis wrote:

> If you have them fire onChange, then you don't need to use extra clicks
> to run them. 

You think we didn't think of that? :-) If you have it fire onchange, a) 
you can't easily select the currently-selected one, and b) there's more 
of a chance of getting the wrong one (dropdown list boxes are fairly 
fiddly.)

Gerv



From kiko at async.com.br  Tue Aug 17 13:30:46 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:30:46 -0300
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <4121C5D8.5000709@mozilla.org>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com> <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br> <41152013.2090307@mozilla.org> <20040807184305.GB1924@async.com.br> <41154F53.6030005@mozilla.org> <20040816230701.GV1125@async.com.br> <4121C5D8.5000709@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <20040817133046.GC545@async.com.br>

On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 09:46:16AM +0100, Gervase Markham wrote:
> Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> 
> >If you have them fire onChange, then you don't need to use extra clicks
> >to run them. 
> 
> You think we didn't think of that? :-) If you have it fire onchange, a) 
> you can't easily select the currently-selected one, and b) there's more 
> of a chance of getting the wrong one (dropdown list boxes are fairly 
> fiddly.)

Yeah, I agree they can be tricky. We still need to user test that part,
will do so this week. If we don't find a good solution, to the bin it
goes -- I'm not married to it.

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From myk at mozilla.org  Thu Aug 19 23:06:55 2004
From: myk at mozilla.org (Myk Melez)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:06:55 -0700
Subject: Bugzilla CSS plan, v3
In-Reply-To: <410962A0.4010208@mozilla.org>
References: <410962A0.4010208@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <4125328F.7000205@mozilla.org>

Here's one last rev of the CSS plan.  It reduces directory structure 
complexity by moving CSS files back to skins/standard/ (i.e. 
skins/standard/<page>.css) instead of a page-specific subdirectory (i.e. 
skins/standard/<page>/<page>.css).  For pages with images and other, 
related files, we'll still store those files in a page-specific 
subdirectory, but the CSS files themselves will live in the root 
directory, making them easier to manage.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

We move the Bugzilla stylesheets, which currently live in css/, to 
skins/standard/, and we call them the standard skin.  We style all 
Bugzilla pages with skins/standard/global.css, and we style pages 
needing special styling with page-specific files (f.e. 
skins/standard/buglist.css).  Images and related files go into a 
page-specific subdirectory (f.e. skins/standard/buglist/image.png).

[We're moving from css/ to skins/ because modern style often includes 
images, and we need to store them somewhere, and it'll be easier to 
install a third-party skin into a single directory, and "css" is 
misleading if we're storing images there too.]

Custom styles live in skins/custom/.  Standard stylesheets tell 
customizers to hack equivalent files in skins/custom/ instead.  They 
also mention that customizers can put all rules, including page-specific 
rules, into skins/custom/global.css for file management simplicity, but 
they note the selector complexity and performance cost of this approach.

checksetup.pl creates skins/custom/ and a set of subdirectories/empty 
stylesheets equivalent to the files in skins/standard/.  
skins/.cvsignore tells CVS to ignore skins/custom/.

[skins/custom/ shouldn't be managed by CVS so it doesn't complicate the 
output of "cvs diff" and installations can store it in local CVS.  It 
should be global (i.e. affect all skins) so installations can use it to 
make changes that apply regardless of the user's choice of skin.]

Installation admins can install third-party skins by adding them to the 
skins/ directory and then adding their name to the "skins" parameter.  
Skins can be either single CSS files (skins/<name>.css) or directories 
of files (skins/<name>/) with the same directory/file structure as the 
default skin.  Multiple skins show up as alternate stylesheets, and 
users can switch to them via their browser's standard mechanism for 
switching between alternate stylesheets.

Bugzilla uses the standard skin by default.  Admins can make Bugzilla 
use a third-party skin by default via the "default_skin" parameter.  
Multiple skins appear to the user as alternate stylesheets.  Bugzilla 
populates the list of alternate stylesheets with the contents of the 
"skins" parameter, excluding the current default skin.

header.html.tmpl generates persistent stylesheet tags for 
customizations, preferred stylesheet tags for the default skin, and 
alternate stylesheet tags for other skins.  Pages thus take on the 
default style, as modified by custom styles, until the user selects an 
alternate style, whereupon they take on the alternate style, as modified 
by custom styles.

More on persistent, preferred, and alternate stylesheets:
  http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/styles.html#h-14.3.1
  http://www.alistapart.com/articles/alternate/

We classify rather than identify pages by installation (i.e. we move the 
installation-specific value of body tags' "id" attributes to their 
"class" attributes).  We additionally classify pages by CGI.  We give 
pages unique IDs where appropriate.  For example, a show_bug.cgi page 
may be identified by the bug number it displays.

Implementation of this proposal will happen in stages.  In the first 
stage, we move existing files to their new locations, make checksetup.pl 
create the custom directory/file hierarchy, make header.html.tmpl 
include custom stylesheets, and classify pages by installation and CGI.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

-myk


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bugzilla.org/pipermail/developers/attachments/20040819/e3e3784e/attachment.html>

From gerv at mozilla.org  Thu Aug 19 23:08:50 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:08:50 +0100
Subject: Gerv away until Monday
Message-ID: <41253302.5060100@mozilla.org>

I'm at EuroFoo (http://wiki.oreillynet.com/eurofoo) so may not be 
contactable and probably won't be checking mail even if I theoretically 
am ;-)

Gerv


From mkanat at kerio.com  Sat Aug 21 01:20:21 2004
From: mkanat at kerio.com (Max Kanat-Alexander)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:20:21 -0700
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <20040816230701.GV1125@async.com.br>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com>
	 <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br> <41152013.2090307@mozilla.org>
	 <20040807184305.GB1924@async.com.br> <41154F53.6030005@mozilla.org>
	 <20040816230701.GV1125@async.com.br>
Message-ID: <1093051221.32601.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2004-08-16 at 16:07, Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> This is somewhere where I think it doesn't make sense to be too picky
> up-front -- if the overall change is good enough to start with, we can
> fine-tune based on feedback over a period.

	Apparently quite a few of us disagree on the best way to do this. :-) I
prefer the list of links, others prefer the drop-down box.

	I guess it had better be a user preference.

	-Max
-- 
Maxwell Kanat-Alexander
2nd Level Tech Support Engineer, USA
Kerio Technologies, Inc.
2041 Mission College Blvd. Suite 100
Santa Clara, CA 95054
Phone: (408) 496-4500
Fax: (408) 496-6902
Web: http://www.kerio.com/support.html




From kiko at async.com.br  Sun Aug 22 21:47:18 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:47:18 -0300
Subject: Control-enter submission
Message-ID: <20040822214718.GK611@async.com.br>


We have a patch at bug 253014 that's been reviewed. What it does is
allows a user to commit a change or new bug to Bugzilla by using
Control-Enter in the textarea (given that the textarea can't allow using
Enter to submit for obvious reasons). This is fairly common on the Web,
and I've used a couple of different web forums that offered the
shortcut. 

    http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=253014

Would anyone have an opinion on the bug? 

This was requested of Async from one of our clients, and I'd be happy to
keep it as a client-only change, but perhaps others will find it as
useful as they do.

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From mkanat at kerio.com  Mon Aug 23 18:19:08 2004
From: mkanat at kerio.com (Max Kanat-Alexander)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:19:08 -0700
Subject: Control-enter submission
In-Reply-To: <20040822214718.GK611@async.com.br>
References: <20040822214718.GK611@async.com.br>
Message-ID: <1093285148.27020.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2004-08-22 at 14:47, Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> This was requested of Async from one of our clients, and I'd be happy to
> keep it as a client-only change, but perhaps others will find it as
> useful as they do.

	I think that sounds pretty useful.

	-Max




From almakushova at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 18:31:55 2004
From: almakushova at yahoo.com (Alma Kushova)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:31:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: a question on tools like Bonsai, LXR etc
In-Reply-To: <1093285148.27020.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20040823183155.48786.qmail@web53006.mail.yahoo.com>

Dear all,
I am sorry, I know it is not the right place, for this, but I was wondering what's the point of using all these tools for almost the same kind of job. The difference between them is not clear and there is not much info in documentation. 
And I haven't seen Perforce SCM in action.
Wouldn't it be possible to have fewer tools? I am confused.
I haven't install Bugzilla, but I am reading a lot about it.
I would appreciate just two sentences saying this tool is for that and they don't replace each other or smth like that.
 
Thank you for your patience
sorry  again to take your time
Alma

Max Kanat-Alexander <mkanat at kerio.com> wrote:
On Sun, 2004-08-22 at 14:47, Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> This was requested of Async from one of our clients, and I'd be happy to
> keep it as a client-only change, but perhaps others will find it as
> useful as they do.

I think that sounds pretty useful.

-Max


-
To view or change your list settings, click here:


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bugzilla.org/pipermail/developers/attachments/20040823/1b5e11cb/attachment.html>

From kiko at async.com.br  Mon Aug 23 19:03:08 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:03:08 -0300
Subject: a question on tools like Bonsai, LXR etc
In-Reply-To: <20040823183155.48786.qmail@web53006.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1093285148.27020.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040823183155.48786.qmail@web53006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040823190308.GD3880@async.com.br>

On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 11:31:55AM -0700, Alma Kushova wrote:
>    I am sorry, I know it is not the right place, for this, but I was
>    wondering what's the point of using all these tools for almost the same
>    kind of job. The difference between them is not clear and there is not
>    much info in documentation.

They are quite different; their integration, however, may make it
difficult at first to distinguish between them. I suggest taking a look
at the LXR, Bonsai, Tinderbox and Bugzilla installations at mozilla.org
to see exactly what each of them does.

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From almakushova at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 19:07:47 2004
From: almakushova at yahoo.com (Alma Kushova)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:07:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: a question on tools like Bonsai, LXR etc
In-Reply-To: <20040823190308.GD3880@async.com.br>
Message-ID: <20040823190747.61628.qmail@web53006.mail.yahoo.com>

thank you very much
Alma

Christian Robottom Reis <kiko at async.com.br> wrote:
On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 11:31:55AM -0700, Alma Kushova wrote:
> I am sorry, I know it is not the right place, for this, but I was
> wondering what's the point of using all these tools for almost the same
> kind of job. The difference between them is not clear and there is not
> much info in documentation.

They are quite different; their integration, however, may make it
difficult at first to distinguish between them. I suggest taking a look
at the LXR, Bonsai, Tinderbox and Bugzilla installations at mozilla.org
to see exactly what each of them does.

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bugzilla.org/pipermail/developers/attachments/20040823/d3b10017/attachment.html>

From preed at sigkill.com  Mon Aug 23 18:45:57 2004
From: preed at sigkill.com (J. Paul Reed)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:45:57 -0700
Subject: a question on tools like Bonsai, LXR etc
In-Reply-To: <20040823183155.48786.qmail@web53006.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1093285148.27020.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040823183155.48786.qmail@web53006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040823184557.GA20007@sigkill.com>

On 23 Aug 2004 at 11:31:55, Alma Kushova arranged the bits on my disk to say:

> I am sorry, I know it is not the right place, for this, but I was

No, it's really not. Try the newsgroup.

> wondering what's the point of using all these tools for almost the same
> kind of job. The difference between them is not clear and there is not
> much info in documentation.  And I haven't seen Perforce SCM in action.
> Wouldn't it be possible to have fewer tools? I am confused.  I haven't
> install Bugzilla, but I am reading a lot about it.  I would appreciate
> just two sentences saying this tool is for that and they don't replace
> each other or smth like that.

You should've been at NYLUG's August meeting last week. This is basically
what I covered.

I think they're posting a video of it at some point.

Later,
Paul
------------------------------------------------------------------------
J. Paul Reed -- 0xDF8708F8 || preed at sigkill.com || web.sigkill.com/preed
Math, my dear boy, is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.
                                            -- Peter Griffin, Family Guy

I use PGP; you should use PGP too... if only to piss off John Ashcroft


From gerv at mozilla.org  Mon Aug 23 21:15:56 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:15:56 +0100
Subject: Control-enter submission
In-Reply-To: <20040822214718.GK611@async.com.br>
References: <20040822214718.GK611@async.com.br>
Message-ID: <412A5E8C.1070708@mozilla.org>

Christian Robottom Reis wrote:
> We have a patch at bug 253014 that's been reviewed. What it does is
> allows a user to commit a change or new bug to Bugzilla by using
> Control-Enter in the textarea (given that the textarea can't allow using
> Enter to submit for obvious reasons). This is fairly common on the Web,
> and I've used a couple of different web forums that offered the
> shortcut. 

Having read the bug, Myk's point is a fair one. It is possible to press 
Ctrl-Enter by mistake (I occasionally do it in Outlook at work), whereas 
it's practically impossible to press Tab Enter by mistake.

Given that Tab Enter is just about as quick, why add the extra method of 
foot-shooting?

Gerv


From gerv at mozilla.org  Mon Aug 23 21:56:15 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:56:15 +0100
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <1093051221.32601.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com>	 <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br> <41152013.2090307@mozilla.org>	 <20040807184305.GB1924@async.com.br> <41154F53.6030005@mozilla.org>	 <20040816230701.GV1125@async.com.br> <1093051221.32601.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <412A67FF.8070502@mozilla.org>

Max Kanat-Alexander wrote:
> 	Apparently quite a few of us disagree on the best way to do this. :-) I
> prefer the list of links, others prefer the drop-down box.
> 
> 	I guess it had better be a user preference.

Oh, no :-| Putting in user preferences like this is a way of copping out 
of making UI decisions. We should analyse which implementation has 
better usability, and choose it. If there's not much difference,  the 
principle of "prioritisation of important stuff" says we stick with what 
we have now.

Gerv


From kiko at async.com.br  Mon Aug 23 22:01:32 2004
From: kiko at async.com.br (Christian Robottom Reis)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:01:32 -0300
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <412A67FF.8070502@mozilla.org>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com> <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br> <41152013.2090307@mozilla.org> <20040807184305.GB1924@async.com.br> <41154F53.6030005@mozilla.org> <20040816230701.GV1125@async.com.br> <1093051221.32601.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <412A67FF.8070502@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <20040823220132.GA5337@async.com.br>

On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 10:56:15PM +0100, Gervase Markham wrote:
> Oh, no :-| Putting in user preferences like this is a way of copping out 
> of making UI decisions. 

Finally, something which I can unconditionally agree with <wink>.

Take care,
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3361 2331


From gerv at mozilla.org  Mon Aug 23 22:05:16 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:05:16 +0100
Subject: Bugzilla CSS plan, v3
In-Reply-To: <4125328F.7000205@mozilla.org>
References: <410962A0.4010208@mozilla.org> <4125328F.7000205@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <412A6A1C.90406@mozilla.org>

Myk Melez wrote:
>   Here's one last rev of the CSS plan.  

Looks good.

Gerv


From bugreport at peshkin.net  Mon Aug 23 22:11:36 2004
From: bugreport at peshkin.net (Joel Peshkin)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:11:36 -0700
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <412A67FF.8070502@mozilla.org>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com>	 <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br> <41152013.2090307@mozilla.org>	 <20040807184305.GB1924@async.com.br> <41154F53.6030005@mozilla.org>	 <20040816230701.GV1125@async.com.br> <1093051221.32601.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <412A67FF.8070502@mozilla.org>
Message-ID: <412A6B98.1060208@peshkin.net>

Gervase Markham wrote:

> Max Kanat-Alexander wrote:
>
>>     Apparently quite a few of us disagree on the best way to do this. 
>> :-) I
>> prefer the list of links, others prefer the drop-down box.
>>
>>     I guess it had better be a user preference.
>
>
> Oh, no :-| Putting in user preferences like this is a way of copping 
> out of making UI decisions. We should analyse which implementation has 
> better usability, and choose it. If there's not much difference,  the 
> principle of "prioritisation of important stuff" says we stick with 
> what we have now.
>
> Gerv


Sometimes, "Both" is the correct answer.  I don't want an administrator 
throwing a switch one way or the other anyway.  Ideally, I'd like to 
have my heavily used links assigned to links and have the rest available 
in a list.  I'd prefer a per-query assignment.  (Just like putting 
bookmarks in a toolbar, directly in a pull-down, or in a folder)






From gerv at mozilla.org  Mon Aug 23 23:25:54 2004
From: gerv at mozilla.org (Gervase Markham)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:25:54 +0100
Subject: Lost Mojo...
In-Reply-To: <412A6B98.1060208@peshkin.net>
References: <914AE8D88708134A9D6A3C0A4F0F06D4016322@hercules.evokesoft.com>	 <20040804222914.GC4864@async.com.br> <41152013.2090307@mozilla.org>	 <20040807184305.GB1924@async.com.br> <41154F53.6030005@mozilla.org>	 <20040816230701.GV1125@async.com.br> <1093051221.32601.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <412A67FF.8070502@mozilla.org> <412A6B98.1060208@peshkin.net>
Message-ID: <412A7D02.4080101@mozilla.org>

Joel Peshkin wrote:
> Sometimes, "Both" is the correct answer.  I don't want an administrator 
> throwing a switch one way or the other anyway.  Ideally, I'd like to 
> have my heavily used links assigned to links and have the rest available 
> in a list.  I'd prefer a per-query assignment.  (Just like putting 
> bookmarks in a toolbar, directly in a pull-down, or in a folder)

This is where I make my usual point about not re-inventing bookmarks :-)

Gerv